Modest Swimsuits for Young Ladies (and the rest of us), Anyone?

Question and ANSWERS, found in a Christian homeschool Facebook list:

"A little off topic, but I thought someone on here might be able to help. I am looking for a website that sells modest swimwear. All the ones that I have found either cater to Islamists or LDS or the swimsuits are made in a dress/skirt style. I'm looking more for something that is a shirt and short set to swim in for myself and my girls. Any ideas? Thanks!"

Here are the replies, with names removed for privacy. Some comments were removed because they didn't add to the discussion list, or simply repeated what someone else had already listed. I added hyperlinks for your ease of search. I also added lots of illustrations.

And if you're wondering, swim shirts are called "rash guards" because they protect the wearer from a rash caused by abrasions, usually of rubbing the chest against a surf board. But they are worn by a great number of other sports folks too, since they are light weight, breathable, quick drying, and durable. If you want to be a real stickler for grammar, a swim shirt is technically different because it's looser fitting than a rash guard.

All of the companies listed below were personal recommendations by individuals to a Facebook list. None of these sellers have compensated me for my time. Just so you know. 

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 I have a friend that buys the boys swim trunks for her daughter and then the rash guard top

example of shorts and "rash guard top" , from www.toysrus.com

I get my daugher's and mine from uvskinz.com. They are a little pricey but last for a long time.

photo from www.uvskinz.com

We do the same thing ... Buy a cheap 2-piece (for quick drying and easy bathroom visits), then buy a cute rash guard and boy swim shorts.

example of girls wearing shorts and rash guard suits, from www.platypusaustralia.com

We found some on Land's End website.

We too have used Landsend. We get the swim t-shirts and board shorts. It seems to work for my girls.

image from hydrochic.com

Hydrochic.com has many options for women. They are limited for girls wear.

swimsuitsforall.com
[swimsuits for all is a website for plus (read "normal") sized women, and many are somewhat-modest, though not the most modest that many modest dressing women are used to. For grown up girls, give it a perusal. -- OFL] 

Limericki.com is where I get all of mine.
[Lime Ricki Swimwear is also a website for more grown up girls, and has the same level of somewhat-modest that the most modest covering ladies may not be looking for. Definitely more modest than the average two piece. -- OFL]

We wear trunks, or board shorts, and rash guards.

Albionfit.com is really good too, and they have mommy & me styles
[Um, I didn't see any really modest suits here, and the poses of the little girls in bathing suits were a little ... disturbing, to me. If you're used to baby beauty pageants, check this one. I guess. -- OFL]

We also buy boy's board shorts and rash guards. We do wear a one piece under that.

example of board shorts and rash guard top, image from Space Coast Living Magazine 

If you search UV swimwear, it will bring up a number of companies that carry shorts& shirts. We've used coolibar, solartex, & tuga

image from Coolibar.com

image from Solartex.com

image from Tuga Sunwear

Last year I got board shorts from landsend.com and rash guards at swimoutlet.com, but I did see that lands end has rash guards now too.

We've done Lands end too. 

I just do board shorts to the knee and a dark rash shirt over a bathing suit.

I love this image of a whole modest bathing family posted to the blog "Calling Her Blessed" - click to read

Thanks so much for your fantastic suggestions. I will check them out.

Lands end is good, but my mom and I have custom swimsuits from Creations by Savannah (Facebook page and etsy store). Mine is a maternity/nursing top and skirt and my mom's is a swim dress.

modest maternity swimsuit, empire style, from Creations by Savannah

I just found this website too http://www.dressingforhisglory.com/

image of the girls swim body tee from Dressing For His Glory, also made in ladies' sizes

Look in the sports/work-out clothing area at Target. They have these really cute sets that are double layers. The top is a sports bra with an attached tank top that has a band at/below the waist level (this keeps it in place really well while diving/swimming etc.) The bottoms are the mesh kind of shorts...but they have an attached spandex type short underneath. I have used these for two years now. I just had to buy a bigger size for my current pregnant belly and it works GREAT! They still feel like swim wear because of the fabric. I love everything about them! Good luck!!

I couldn't find the sports/yoga top with attached sports bra on the Target.com website, but I did find a lot of references to the Target yoga clothes while searching. It may be worth your while to check the sports clothes section!

image of boys swim shorts and rash guard, from www.target.com 

I got my daughter a swim shirt and shorts at Walmart. Then got a cheap 2 piece to use for under.

I like hydrochic.com.

I got my daughter board shirts off amazon not short ones and a swim shirt too what age are u looking for? Gymboree had some cute modest ones too skirt was to the knee

Creations by Savannah

Did the leggings come with?

... yes. You tell her how long you want the shorts/leggings and how long you want the sleeves (can also be sleeveless). It is two pieces.

Nice to have these resources! I lucked out and found one I loved at a local bargain outlet, but we're still looking for something this year for my 11 year old. She's 5' 4", and on the solid side, so she needs adult sizes. She wants the rashguard type, so happy that she likes being covered up. I heard her polite disapproval over her friend's two piece, and it cracked me up.

I always put my kids in swim tshirts and long swimtrunks. I've never really seen a modest swimsuit

They are not cheap, but excellent quality.

You can have soft cups sewn in, but being large-chested we both just wear a bra under them. Mom says the dress does not float up above her waist at all.

When we have ladies swim nights at my friends house, I've seen others wearing guys swim shorts and those swim/surfer shirts.

womanwithin.com is good. Plus sizes a little pricey but they are doing a lot of deals for memorial weekend

We do one piece surf wetsuits 

My daughter and I do guy's swim trunks (even found a pink pair for her at old Navy last year) and swim shirts. I actually got myself a full blown rash guard that has long sleeves and the material has built in sun protection (got it from Athleta). I burn very easy and skin cancer runs in my family, so it was more for skin protection than modesty sake. I were a tankini top under it for support. I have gotten so many compliments from scantily clad teens, I cracks me up. 

I ordered from http://www.simply-modest.com/posecom/index.php a few years ago. It's held up very well at the beach, pool and tubing the white river in AR. I'm going to have to get another because I've gained so much weight the past few years...

image from Simply-Modest.com

Coolibar! They are pricey but very durable and modest.

Just one combination from Coolibar.com

We buy one piece suits, then buy the "rash guard" surfer type shirts at Walmart or target and then the jogging shorts that are the really light parachute type material that dries quickly. I usually find the shorts at jcpenney in the ladies athletic dept.

Kosher casual
[Kosher Casual has lots of cute modest clothes of all kinds, including workout clothing and accessories for layering and filling in gaps in less modest clothes styles. -- OFL]

Target sells those in a short with skirt overlay but come down upper thigh and a nice shirt style top.

I wear athletic capris & athletic tshirts to swim in (I have found them at Walmart and Target for pretty cheap). I prefer the darker colors so they are not see thru. I also like to buy them a little bit bigger so they fit loosely instead of skin tight.

C9 by Champion® Women's Mesh Capri Pants at Target.com

I have used Lands End for years; recently the selection and quality are a bit less desirable.

Academy always has swim shorts where we live. Have you tried there?

reyswimwear I haven't ordered one yet, but some of them are really cute.
[Rey Swimwear offers modest (old fashioned?) one piece and two piece outfits, in the classy style of Audrey Hepburn. Not necessarily shorts and rashers, but more modest than modern suits. - OFL]

from the kids section at Rey Swimwear

We personally have used Modestly Yours Swimwear http://www.modestlyyoursswimwear.com/. I have ordered from them 2 times and it's basically a custom made swimsuit. They are very friendly and the suits are incredibly well made.


I wear a swim skirt with attached leggings. I got it at undercoverwaterwear. Com. My daughter's wear solid color boy swim shorts and then we find girl swim shirts to Match. Usually find the best selection and price at Wal-Mart. ...they have some cute ones right now

http://www.landsend.com/...

I buy athletic tanks (quick-dry fabric) and wear soccer shorts. Target has a great section of Champion athletic wear. We have also found tennis tanks on sale.

I need to get something like the simply modest suits for my daughter. She generally wears boys swim trunks and a rash guard, but lately she is getting chafing on the inner thighs from the seams of the shorts. I wear below the knee athletic leggings with a tennis skort and a rash guard and a hat to help minimize sunburns.

nicoleeswimwear on etsy, does custom swimwear. Shirts and shorts, or swimdress/legging types. Here's a cute one for a little girl.http://www.etsy.com/.../girls-pre-made-polka-dot-tank...

image from NicoLeeSwimwear

Jennifer Comstock has an etsy shop with really cute modest swimwear. I think it may have been mentioned earlier. You can access it through her blog, www.swimmodest.blogspot.com. I highly recommend.

We have also used modestlyyoursswimwear.com for custom made modest tops and skirts. I've used other shorts with the tops as well.

We have bought from swimmodest.com in older agea and athletic body suits (one piece, tank on top and shorts close to knee on bottom) when girls were little.

image from http://www.swimmodest.com/

[Note that swimmodest.com and swimmodest.blogspot are two DIFFERENT websites. -- OFL]

If you have any additions you'd like to make, or if you are a seller and would like to compensate me for my time in putting this page together with links and photos, let me know in the comments below! :)

True Woman

A big deal in interdenominational conservative Christians recently has been the "True Woman '08" conference in Chicago, this past weekend. Put together much like many of our "ladies' weekends", speakers came and spoke, prayers and hymns were sung, and some lives were changed. Difference being that this was about 2000 ladies from several countries, from a wide variety of backgrounds (I saw in the photos women with prayer caps like the Mennonites, women acting out very "Pentecostal" like, etc.), and the speakers had all written many many books and probably most women there did not feel the same way about raising of funds for doing God's work, the importance of physical things like baptism, the Lord's Supper observances, head covering, foot washing, church buildings, etc. I did tune in to some of the free live streaming presentations. I missed John Piper and Joni Erickson Tada (you may have heard their names), but I did hear from a woman who had written a book many years ago countering the feminist "Feminine Mystique" book with her own "Feminine Mistake". Oh, how we have all been led, regardless of our doctrine as regards the follower of God, in general.

The point being brought out in all of these lessons is that part of The Doctrine that we are all missing as that of living out the teachings, traditions, commandments of Christ in our day to day lives; specifically here, us women. We aren't men. God designed from the beginning that we were to be different. And not just biologically. I know I bought into the lie. I remember smiling at the Virginia Slims ads: "You've come a long way, Baby" (from the days when we women were slaves). Thing is, we weren't slaves. We were made to be content in our role as the Church incarnate. Many women were and still are, and I dare say, even those who are not trying to follow God's written laws, or those who are following them misguidedly, or who are following laws not written by God but who believe that they are. His law is written in our hearts, and in our consciences, and we rebel against our nature and mess things up for ourselves and those around us, when we think we can do anything men can do AND have babies too. I've been learning this more and more the past few years (and I am just 40 years old now), trying to get my thinking out of all the "stuff" that I was raised up with, skipping out on Home Ec. because it was beneath me. HA! I read and hear so many younger women who think us older women are nuts and old fashioned but not truly Christian, for believing these things; and who become "doormats". Wait a minute. Jesus Christ was a doormat - Jesus washed dirty feet, and was spat on. Right? It's time, says this conference and I think so to, that we Christian ladies - especially if you feel that all those ladies at the conferences don't have the full understanding of Scripture as they should - to get up and truly be different from the world, to teach the younger women to be different, and to show our mothers and aunties who really did mean well but didn't train us correctly, that we are going to be what God made us to be: Truly different from men, in our worship, our teaching, our day to day lives.

Look at Titus 2 again - when the elders and older women are described, it is their manner of life which is focused upon. Don't you long for the kind of "Church of Christ" that we heard about (and maybe some of you lived during) when other Christians knew that if a Bible was missing during a trial that they could smilingly suggest that they could "swear on a member of the church of Christ" because they knew and lived the Word so well?

Living the doctrine of Christ. It's more than a check list. It's more than a "skirts touch knees and two fingers below the collar bone" form of modesty. It's more than 2 times a week putting up with other people "at church", and blogging on an all black and white blogspace, or avoiding blogs at all. It's more than knowing the Greek and Hebrew and having the biggest library. It's more than reading out of a lesson book for your turn at teaching the class. It's doing more than making a casserole, or signing up to host the visiting preacher for lunch.

It's living it with your whole life and your whole heart - that's true doctrine: something which transforms and makes you come out from among them and be separate. Not just another building on Church Street. Not just a great social group where no one uses bad language and watches clean movies together. But if that's all there is - a checklist - then how are we more righteous than those Pharisees? What makes us different, and therefore a light on a hill, or on a lampstand?

If we say we don't need those outside denominational preachers and teachers or videos or books or Christian counselors in order to truly live the blessed yet difficult temporary life that Christ has called us to, because He did give us the saved written Word, then let's get out there and live it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But if you're interested, here's the page where you can listen for free to the talks given at that conference I mentioned: True Woman '08. I listened to Piper's talk this morning. If you feel I'm falling off track and need to be pulled back - PLEASE let me know.

The High Calling for Noble Ladies

From the latest radio series conversation from (click here:) Revive Our Hearts:

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Bob Lepine: I’ll never forget a conversation I was having once with two college professors. These professors taught what is a dying discipline on the college campus. They were teaching Home Economics. They were meeting with a group of young college women. They said to these women, “How many of you hope that some day you will be married and that you will be parents, that you’ll be a mom?”

And virtually all of the women raised their hands. That was their hope and their longing. And these college professors said, “How come you’re not taking Home Economics classes?” And one of them said, “Because my dad said, ‘I’m not spending all that money sending you to college just so you can learn how to cook and clean the house.’”

We do seem to live in a culture today that is somewhat confused about what God’s intention for a woman is when it comes to career, when it comes to her role in the home, and it’s one of the issues that young women are having to address, having to confront.

In fact, I remember speaking to a group of teenage girls once, talking to them about their plans for going to college, what they were planning to major in, and what they hoped to be doing five or ten years from now. Virtually all of them gave me career answers to that question, and when I stopped and said, “What about marriage and family? Is that something that you’re interested in?” They said, “Oh yeah.” But their thinking was career not how do I prepare to be a wife and a mom.

This is one of those challenging issues for us in today’s culture.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And, Dannah, as you talk with teenage girls, as you talk with them today, how is this shaping their thinking, and how is it subtly influencing them in a directional way from what God would have for them?

Dannah: Well, I don’t think it’s very subtle. I think it’s pretty direct. What’s frightening to me is we’ve had the issue of young women saying, “I don’t know if I want to submit to my husband when I have a husband; I don’t know if I really want to have a husband.” Within the last five years or so, they are increasingly saying, “I don’t know if I want to have kids, at all, ever. I haven’t seen that be a good thing. I don’t want to be tied to that. I don’t want to be slowed down.”

It’s frightening to me that this isn’t just a cultural pressure anymore, but it’s something within the church.

Bob: So the lie that teenage girls are believing today is that being a mom, being a wife, is not something that has any real value. Is that it?

Nancy: It’s not just what a woman’s role is, but it goes back to this whole thing of our calling and our design as women, and the fact that God made women and men for distinctive, unique purposes to bring Him glory in this world, that’s what it’s all about. It’s not about our fulfillment or our happiness. I think we had stripped from us, in the last two or three generations, the sense of what it even means to be a woman.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Honestly, it wasn’t until I was probably in my early twenties that I started grappling with:

• What did it mean?
• What does it mean for me to be a woman?
• Why did God make me a woman?
• Why is that a good thing?
• How can I glorify God as a woman?

I think I was probably in my early thirties before I was really comfortable with that, and not just comfortable. What God did was so sweet. It’s not just something I said, “Okay, I surrender to this.” There was that, but more than that there was embracing a vision for how my life could distinctively glorify God as a woman and finding joy and freedom and fullness in that.

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Please read or listen to the series: (click here:) Revive Our Hearts.

Modesty News

1 - In "The Tide Online", an article detailing how a Catholic leader in Nigeria is calling on churches to take responsibility for not teaching about modesty. “Repentance comes in various ways. Bad dressing depicts a person’s level of immorality. . . . The Catholic Church has no code of dressing, but we say let there be modesty because modesty is the fruit of the Holy Spirit,” he said.

He also puts responsibility on mothers to teach and take a more active interest in what their daughters wore, as well as setting a good example. “We need to dress like people who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus and we should not forget that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit ,” he said.

2 - In New Hampshire.com, an article with photos which headlines: "'Posh' fashion event shows modesty can be fashionable". Good news? Well, check out the photos and the story - maybe not the level of modesty that some of us would hold up, but a switch from other "prom" dresses of recent years. End quote: “I was surprised at the girls’ willingness to talk about how they should be dressing,” Thomas said. “I really didn’t think we were going to have a lot of girls that were going to want to do this.” . . . Modest may be the new fashion trend for this summer.

3 - Just a things-that-make-you-go-"what?" article I came across in Cleveland.comabout a new tech. device/burka (the head to toe modesty cloak worn by some Muslim women when in public). Seems some wise Deutch guy came up with an artistic (not actually on the market, that is) way for a woman to skirt the community rules and actually "broadcast" what she's got under her burka to anyone around with a bluetooth enabled phone. That whole concept can be attacked in numerous ways. The thing I wanted to post really was the final line by a lady fellow at the Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University. She said that this "art" sends an accurate political message that restrictive policies in Muslim countries cannot force people to be moral in a technological age, since people will find ways to get around it. . . . "These days, if you really want to maintain the morality of society, it's something that has to come from within," she said.

So, you really can't legislate morality. True morality, true modesty, true spiritual humility: they come from the Spirit of God, don't they? So, shouldn't we be focusing our time and attention on teaching the whole Gospel - that of love for God and His will, and love for one another's souls - by words and by our behavior in everything?

IMHO

Those Headcoverings

Google Labs has introduced a Google web page creator. I had to try it out, and share information on a subject that I have done a lot of research on - though not nearly as much as many of the web sites that I link to on the site.

Please, if you get a chance to check it out, go to:

Those Headcoverings

and see for yourself what so many people are saying about those things people wear on their heads. Since the page is still under construction, I would really like to have feedback on what I have done, and maybe should do, with this web site, to make it the most helpful for people to do their own research and come to conclusions on the matter.

If you would like to read my own conclusions, I wrote about Christian head covering when I first began this Old Fashioned Lady blog. Click the link below the article to view all the blog entries I've made with the label "headcovering".

Also, the Christian, Islamic, Jewish and "Other" website links and information are kept in lists in separate pages, so you can limit your research to one subject, since the general heading of "headcovering" can be quite a lot of work.

Please let me know what you think - pro or con.

Humbly yours,

LisaM

Real Old-Fashioned Clothing for Today's Ladies

Visiting Offbeatmodestdress, I found her link to In Timely Fashion and read this interview with Kara Shallenberg. The site is dedicated to dressing almost exclusively in fashions from the past. You must see!

Modest Clothing Sites

I've gotten a couple of requests to promote modest clothing sites this past week that are kind of cute, trendy, modest sites - price ranges I guess are about department store in the mall prices (?). Please, check out:

- http://www.mikarose.com/
- http://www.christa-taylor.com/

Here's the letter that came with the second:

I wanted to let you know about a new company that may be of interest to you and your readers. Christa Taylor is a Christian 20 year old designer dedicated to producing high quality chic and trendy clothing that allows women to be fashionable without being suggestive. She resounding rejects the notion that modesty must be frumpy and has set out to disprove that notion through her clothing line. Christa operates her business as a family enterprise involving two brothers, her father and two sisters. She is also committed to donating at least 5% of her sales to the poor and towards advancing social justice around the world. You can find her site at http://www.christa-taylor.com . We would love for you to check us out and possibly list us a resource on your site.. . . Thanks for your time and consideration.
Stephen Taylor"

(photo on left from Mikarose; photo on right from Christa-Taylor)

I also posted a couple of photos from their sites, so that you can see the length of the skirts and dresses that are offered. Most who have read my blog in the past know that I am a long skirt lady, but I know that many of you are not, and so I want to recommend that you check out these two websites for encouragement to keep on being a modest lady in your corner of the world. We are not alone!

"A Vision for Biblical Womanhood"

Do you know Nancy Leigh DeMoss? The "Revive Our Hearts" radio show for women? If you haven't heard or read this lady before, I highly recommend going to the following links and listening or reading her lessons on women and feminine behaviour. (icon and photo here from the ROH website)


check here for transcripts at the Revive our Hearts website, of all the episodes in the series "A Vision for Biblical Womanhood"

click here to find and listen to the series at OnePlace.com


Pray and listen. Learn and grow.

Here's a sample of one of the day's transcript:

Series: A Vision for Biblical Womanhood
Friday, February 1 2008

Leslie: This is Revive Our Hearts with Nancy Leigh DeMoss for Friday, February 1.

We’ve been in a series called A Vision for Biblical Womanhood. Nancy’s shown us what it means to be uniquely feminine in the home and in the church. Today we’ll consider: Is there a way to be distinctly feminine all the time, around everyone we meet? Here’s Nancy.

Nancy: I remember a number of years ago watching a world skating championship for the ladies’ free skate program, and my ears perked up when I heard Dick Button commentating on one of the skaters’ performances.

He said, “She’s a very ladylike skater. She makes me feel very relaxed when I watch her.” That comment caught my attention, and I thought, “That is a picture of the beauty of true femininity.”

“She’s a very ladylike skater. She makes me feel very relaxed when I watch her.” That was a man commenting on the beauty of femininity.

The same is true with masculinity. There’s something engaging, something arresting about true masculinity when it’s lived out.

That femininity and masculinity, that complementary way of men and women relating to each other, can touch people in powerful ways.

Not too long ago I was listening to a recording session with another radio program. I was sitting in the control room watching the interview go on, and at one point I had to slip out of the room.

The engineer saw that I was getting ready to leave, and when he saw me stand up, he got up and went ahead of me and opened the door for me, and I thanked him. This man is a gentleman. It was not anything highly unusual for him to do this, so I didn’t think a whole lot about it until a few minutes later.

I went down the hall, and there was another woman who had been in the control room when this happened. She had seen me leave, and she had seen him get up and open the door.

I ran into her down the hall, and she was in tears. She said, “I just want to say what an incredible thing it was when that man got up and opened the door for you a few moments ago.”

The reason this was so touching to her must be that this whole relationship, this complementary relationship between men and women, must be so unusual. You see so little of it that when you do see it, it can impact you in profound and powerful ways.

Over these last few days, we’ve been talking about the complementarian view—which I believe to be the biblical perspective—of manhood and womanhood, and comparing it to another perspective that many hold today within the evangelical church. It has often been called the egalitarian view.

The complementarian view is that men and women are equal in dignity and worth, though men have been given the distinct responsibility to lead their wives, and they’ve been given certain teaching and governing roles in the church that are reserved for men.

As we’ve seen, the egalitarian position is that men and women should be regarded as equals in authority in the home and also in the church—that they should have access to all positions of spiritual leadership within the church.

Again, if you’ve not been able to hear the whole series, it makes me a little nervous to think you would just hear bits and pieces of this. I want to encourage you to get the whole series and to listen to it all so you can get what I’m saying in its entire context.

Also, let me encourage you to go to our website, ReviveOurHearts.com, and there we have a link that will take you to a whole page we’ve set up called “Biblical Womanhood.” It will give you additional resources, tools that will help you understand this better.

If you find yourself saying, “That woman is off the wall; there is no way I agree with her!” Before you write and tell us that—and I don’t mind if you do, but before you do—would you take some time to study this out a little further, to get into the Word yourself and make sure you have read and tried to understand and study what the Scripture teaches on this subject? And then I do hope you’ll write and tell us where you are on that.

Now, we’ve talked about the complementarian vision, what I think is a biblical vision of manhood and womanhood in the home and in the church. But I want to talk today about the implications of the complementarian position, this vision for biblical manhood and womanhood beyond the sphere of the home and the church.

What do biblical manhood and womanhood look like in other relationships, in other contexts?

I think it’s important that we say, first of all, that the Scripture is silent or ambiguous when it comes to many aspects of specific roles for men and women beyond the home and the church. Scripture is more clear about the distinct roles that men and women should have in the home and in the church.

It is not as clear—and, in some cases, is silent—it does not say what roles a woman can or cannot have in the business world, in the world of government, or in other organizations. You don’t read there the same distinctions being made in the Scripture. So we need to be careful not to speak where Scripture doesn’t speak.

However, we are still called to express our God-created distinctiveness as men and as women within all of our relationships, within every context in life. The fact that we are female or the fact that a man is male has implications for all of life.

Now, the essential concept of masculinity and femininity—most people today can hardly spell them or pronounce them; that whole concept has been under attack for generations. In fact, it’s been nearly lost in our culture; and as a result today, we’re seeing some bizarre extremes, things we never would have imagined.

For example, I read an article out of the San Francisco Chronicle. The headlines read:

When is it okay for boys to be girls and girls to be boys?
Many kids want to look and act like the other sex.
For some, it’s a phase; for others, it’s not.
Parents and schools are adjusting.

Those are the headlines. Now, here’s how the article began:

Park Day School is throwing out gender boundaries.

Teachers at the private Oakland Elementary School have stopped asking the children to line up according to sex when walking to and from class. They now let boys play girls and girls play boys in skits, and there’s a unisex bathroom.

[The] admissions director . . . is even a little apologetic that she still balances classes by gender.

We had to ask ourselves, “What is the gender for young children?” [the admissions director] said. “It’s coming up more and more.”

Now, it’s a sorry and sad day when we have to ask ourselves what is gender for young children.

Peggy Noonan is a columnist for the Wall Street Journal, and back shortly after 9/11, she wrote a column called “Welcome Back, Duke” (10/14/01). In that column she expressed gratitude for the many men who had demonstrated manliness in the wake of 9/11. Her point was, manliness is back.

She was very excited about this. In the context of that column, she talked about how manliness and its brother, gentlemanliness, went out of style. She says,

I know, because I was there. In fact, I may have done it. I remember exactly when: It was in the mid-70s, and I was in my mid-20s, and a big, nice, middle-aged man got up from his seat to help me haul a big piece of luggage into the overhead luggage space on a plane. I was a feminist, and I knew our rules and rants. “I can do it myself,” I snapped. It was important that he know women are strong. . . . I embarrassed a nice man who was attempting to help a lady. I wasn’t lady enough to let him. I bet he never offered to help a lady again.

Now let me say again, as we have earlier, that masculinity and femininity are not ultimately defined by a list of rules or a set of behaviors as much as they are defined by a disposition, an inclination of the heart; and that inclination, as we said earlier, is expressed in many different ways in everyday life circumstances and situations.

I think, for example, of someone I met years ago. Madeline Manning Mims was an Olympic gold medalist in the 1968 Olympics. She was a runner.

As we were talking one day about this whole thing of femininity, she said, “My coach always told me, ‘Remember, you’re a lady first and an athlete second.’”

So it’s not that the field of athletics cannot be one that women participate in. It’s an inclination of the heart that makes you feminine, whatever your suit is, whatever field you’re involved in.

I love two definitions that John Piper gives us. I’ve quoted them before on Revive Our Hearts, and I’m sure I will quote them again.

He addresses this whole concept of biblical masculinity and femininity in a powerful little book called What’s the Difference? I think it’s the best thing I’ve read on this subject. It’s very, very effective.

Let me give you the definitions he gives for masculinity and for femininity, where he talks about this inclination, this disposition of the heart. He says,

At the heart of mature masculinity is a sense of benevolent [kind or gracious] responsibility to lead, provide for, and protect women in ways appropriate to a man’s differing relationships.

He goes on and has much more to say about that. He says, for example, if the woman you’re protecting or leading or providing for is your wife, then you do that in different ways than if it’s your secretary or it’s a woman that’s on the worship team with you at church.

There are different ways appropriate within those relationships. But, he says, no matter what the relationships, it’s still an inclination that you have, a responsibility to lead, to provide for, and to protect women.

So he defines masculinity as a pattern of initiative, the initiative to provide for and to protect and to lead. Then he talks about femininity. He says,

At the heart of mature femininity is a freeing disposition [and it is that—I just want to tell you, it is; it’s freeing when you develop this disposition by the power of the Spirit] to affirm, receive, and nurture strength and leadership from worthy men in ways appropriate to a woman’s differing relationships.

So we see here the man as an initiator and the woman as a responder. It’s a bent. It’s a direction of your heart that you’ll find expressing itself in everyday circumstances and situations.

Men are responsible to give this—to initiate this leadership, this protection, and this provision. But what are we to do as women? We’re to affirm it. We’re to encourage it. We’re to receive it.

So, ladies, when we point out how few gentlemen there are in the world today, we’re perhaps making an indictment on ourselves on how few ladies there are today. I just have this great belief that if women would act like ladies, like queens, then men would treat us that way.

Now, I’m not saying every man will. As long as there is sin in this world, there are going to be men who don’t act like godly men; and as long as there is sin in this world, there are going to be women who don’t act like godly women.

But I believe that men will be more empowered to be godly men and to provide the kind of leadership that we long for deep in our hearts when we begin to receive, affirm, and encourage that leadership.

I think that as men provide the leadership, then we as women will be encouraged to respond. It’s a dance, so to speak. It’s give and take, but we can’t do it for the men.

We can only be what God has called us to be as women. But I believe that as we do, men will find themselves empowered, in a healthy sense, to provide the kind of leadership we long to see.

Now, this applies whether we’re married or single. Single, as I am and as many of you are, it applies in the workplace, it applies in casual relationships and close relationships—every relationship everywhere.

So what might this look like, this mature femininity, this inclination, this disposition to affirm, receive, and encourage strength and leadership from worthy men? Let me share with you some things I have found it looks like for me.

First of all, it means being large-hearted in my contact with men; being compassionate, humble. It means assuming the best. It means bringing out the best in one another, between men and women, our exchanges, our conversation. It means demonstrating a mutual respect. It means, for me as a woman, speaking to and about men in ways that show respect for them as men.

This femininity to me means looking for ways to affirm, receive, and encourage strength and leadership in worthy men. It means being responsive and receptive to their initiative and to their leadership.

By the same token, it means not being quick to put it down or dismiss it, or to say, “I don’t need it.” We’ve been so trained. It’s in the water. It’s in the air we breathe.

It’s not in the water; it’s in our sin nature to say, “I can do this myself!” And for multiple generations now, women have been taught, “You cannot need men.” They’re wrong.

Women need men, and men need women. We need to stop being combative and competitive, and receive one another, looking for ways to lift and to build up men as men, looking for ways to empower them, to encourage them as they do take steps.

I’ve heard from enough men now to know that in today’s world, it’s a scary thing for a man to step up to the plate, because for so long, so many men have been cut off at the kneecaps, so to speak, when they do try to step out.

For example (this comes to mind right off the top of my head at this moment), I remember years ago hearing a woman say, “When we were newly married, my husband said, ‘Let’s pray and have devotions together.’ The first time we did that as a new couple, I criticized him for the way he did it. It was years before my husband ever stepped up to the plate again and tried to lead me spiritually.”

What happened? He tried; he got cut off; he got scared, and he (wrongly) said, “I’m not stepping up to bat again.” But that woman was partially—hugely—responsible for making that man scared to step up to leadership, not only in their marriage but probably in other relationships as well.

This biblical vision of womanhood means we will not be competitive with men. We’ll not be striving in our spirit. It means no male-bashing. If you’ve been around Revive Our Hearts for any length of time, you know that we do not allow, in this ministry or on this program, jokes that make men look dumb or ignorant or unmanly.

I’m not saying no man ever acts in those ways, but it’s not our responsibility to point out the foibles and weaknesses and flaws of men. We’re just not going there.

A lot of humor today is gender humor at the expense of men. Now, men are liable to have a lawsuit if they make those kinds of jokes about women. That’s not politically correct.

But it is politically correct today for women to tell all kinds of jokes and lines demeaning and belittling of men. The biblical vision of womanhood says, “No. We’re not going there. No disparaging jokes, no sarcasm.”

At times for me, being feminine in a world where I’m relating to men may mean deferring. Sometimes it may mean even limiting my own liberty or taking a back seat in a setting. It may mean zipping my lips in some settings, for the sake of a cause and a purpose that is bigger than myself.

What is that sake? Encouraging men to be men. That doesn’t mean I walk into the room and point it out. I don’t say, “If you men would just be men . . .” Sometimes it means I’m just willing to be quiet, to defer, to take a back seat, not to be the first person to speak out in a setting.

You say, “Why should you have to do that?” Because of love, because of humility, because of a desire to see men be all that God created them to be, and know that as they do and as they are, I will be free to be all that God made me to be. [emphasis mine - LM]

Now, this whole talk to some people may sound demeaning to women. It may sound restrictive. It may sound crazy, and to some women, I’m sure it does sound crazy. I’m sure we’ll be getting some of those emails.

But I want to tell you it is actually extremely freeing. It means I don’t have to live with a chip on my shoulder. I don’t have to assert or prove myself as a woman. I don’t have to feel threatened by chauvinistic tendencies that do exist in some men.

I don’t have to resent men when they manifest traits of fallenness. It frees me up to help, to love, to encourage, to serve, to give, and to lift up my brothers in the body of Christ.

So I find myself asking, “How can I lift up and encourage and strengthen the men around me by being more feminine?”

To live out this biblical vision requires that we be willing to go against our own fallen, fleshly tendencies. This does not come naturally. It goes against the grain of the flesh.

But I’ve discovered that the willingness to embrace my femininity tests and reveals what’s in my heart. It tests my own submission to God. It tests my heart toward others.

If I balk, if I have a kick in my spirit or a chip on my shoulder, it says something about what’s in my heart. Let me tell you, the real issue is not how I view men—it’s how I view God.

Am I willing to come into submission to God’s authority in my life? If so, then I will be willing, by the power of His Spirit and by His grace, to live out the gospel; which means for me as a woman having that inclination, that disposition to affirm, to receive, and to nurture strength and leadership from worthy men in ways that are appropriate for my differing relationships with them.

When we do that, we glorify God. We shed the spotlight on Him.

When men and women both do that within the body of Christ, God is glorified. People see God in a way they never could have seen Him otherwise. They see the great plan of redemption, and they are brought to believe and to be saved themselves.

Leslie: When women embrace womanhood, and in the process encourage masculinity in men, God is glorified. Nancy Leigh DeMoss has been explaining this in a series called A Vision for Biblical Womanhood.

This is an important topic, and I hope Nancy’s words here will encourage you to study further. Earlier, Nancy quoted from John Piper, the book she called “the best thing I’ve read on the subject.”

We have that slim volume by John Piper. It’s called What’s the Difference? It will help you better understand biblical passages that speak to roles, and it will guide you through tricky, contemporary subjects of grace.

. . .

Get more information at our website. I hope you can be back with us again Monday for Revive Our Hearts. Now Nancy’s back with a final thought.

Nancy: I’m sure some of you who have heard these words today have found yourself perhaps chafing inwardly, maybe that kick in the spirit, feeling perhaps resentful or resistant toward this whole concept. I want to tell you honestly that I’ve been there myself at times. I sometimes still find myself there.

But God has used those struggles and battles in my own heart to show me flesh that needs to be taken to the cross, and to show me areas of my life that need to come under the headship of Jesus Christ. I want to encourage you to seek the Lord on this and say, “Lord, how can my life as a woman reflect the beauty of who You are in the relationships I have with the men around me?”

Ask God to show you ways you can reflect His beauty through cultivating a feminine spirit. I want to tell you, it will be greatly freeing. You will find such liberty, such grace as you fulfill the purpose for which God created you.

Thank You, Lord, for Your grace. Thank You for challenging our hearts with this truth from Your Word. I pray that You will find us surrendered and saying, “Yes, Lord, I want to be the woman You made me to be.”

Help us, Lord, to bless the men around us, to lift them up, to strengthen them, to encourage them; and to know that as we do, You will strengthen and encourage us. I pray in Jesus’ name, amen.

Men and Women - Love and Respect

For those of you who appreciate the old fashioned Biblical approach to marriage and family books by Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn, you can hear them online at a few different discussions at OnePlace.com. Based on Ephesians 5:33 -

"Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband."

HomeWord with Jim Burns : A Woman's Guide to the Mind of a Man (Part 1) - "In a landmark survey, author Shaunti Feldhahn asked several thousand men what they really want WOMEN to know about them. Parenting and family expert Dr. Jim Burns talks with Shaunti Feldhahn about the results of her research."

HomeWord with Jim Burns : A Man's Guide to the Heart of a Woman (Part 1) - "When it comes to understand what women want, most men are pretty clueless. Parenting and family expert Dr. Jim Burns talks with Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn - a husband and wife research team who have discovered tips for sharing with men "A Man's Guide to the Heart of a Woman."" (2 parts total)

Focus on the Family - Dr. James Dobson : What Men Need to Know About Women 1 - "Many husbands are clueless when it comes to understanding how their wives think and feel, even after years of marriage. If you're one of those husbands - or if you're a wife who wants to be better understood by her husband - today's program is especially for you. Jeff and Shaunti Feldhahn offer insightful marital advice from their book For Men Only: A Straightforward Guide to the Inner Lives of Women.
"Men love their wives ... but they really don't know how to communicate it in a way that is effective with their wives because they just don't think that they can understand them." - Jeff Feldhahn" (there are 3 parts total in this series of talks)

NOTE - these are NOT sermon tapes, but interviews with authors. Also, the radio show websites are trying to raise money for these programs, and you will hear that reflected in the opening and closing remarks. That aside, the thoughts shared in the discussions between the authors and the program hosts may give you something to think about, and Biblical standards seem to be upheld. Let me know if there's anything that goes against God's will for marriage and family, and I will post that here.

You can listen to these radio slots on your Real Player or Windows Media, or download the mp3 for free through the oneplace website.

Seasonal Websites

"You'll find down to earth crafts, recipes, gardening advice and family activities plus tips on keeping your family history and teaching your kids and grandkids about the generations that came before them." - Old Fashioned Living at seedsofknowledge.com

Find the meanings behind many of the traditions at - All Things Christmas

Everything Christmas - traditions, Santa tracking, and lots of Music! - SantaSearch.org

Old Fashioned Christmas Candy recipes, - from CWBN

Everyone needs all kinds of Christmas cookies recipes - Christmas-cookies.com

Find several recipes for - Old Fashion Christmas Pudding

"Back in the 1800s, homemade and handcrafted ornaments adorned most Christmas trees. For the simplicity and beauty of an old-fashioned celebration, add antique ornaments, reproduction antiques or homemade decorations to your tree." -
How to Decorate an Old-Fashioned Christmas Tree

Everything you ever wanted to know about good old fashioned live Christmas trees - National Christmas Tree Association, Inc.

Old fashioned archives of information, pictures, legends and customs - The Christmas Archives

"Having an old-fashioned Christmas does not mean that you have to sacrifice your worldly goods. It simply means that you want to have a more simple, enjoyable Christmas, without many of the stresses. Isn't that what you desire?" An article with suggestions - The Magic of an Old-Fashioned Christmas

"Sights and Sounds of an Old-Fashioned New England Christmas" - Christmas at Old Sturbridge Village: A Virtual Photo Tour

On Wearing Skirts

I know that not everyone who dresses modestly believes that means they should be wearing skirts. And I won't say that it's a necessary part of dressing modestly or a "rule" of some kind - I simply cannot do that. But I found that, for me, the more modestly I was trying to dress and behave, the more interested I was in "lady like behavior" in general, and I developed a stronger liking for skirts. Now, I'm not into frills and laces and all that "mush" (I know some of you might be; please don't take that as an insult! - grin), but I do like skirts.

(photo: Long Floral tiered Prairie Skirt from modestapparelusa.com)

Here's a few links that I found about women in skirts, where they wear them all the time, and provided photos at their sites. They believe in wearing skirts modestly too, so we're not looking at above the knee or tight skirts that many of us wouldn't wear either. These are just offering their thoughts to those truly considering on these things.

1. Through the week in feminine dress from the Ladies Against Feminism website

2. Another lady's week, on the same site

3. From Mrs. Catherine of "Making It Home" - her own week of work in dresses and skirts

There may be other sites out there, but I just thought it might be nice to share these so you can see what some of us are talking about when we say that dresses and skirts are practical as well as pretty.

Remember - I never said wearing pants is wrong or immodest! I do it myself sometimes. I don't think these ladies are saying that it is wrong either, but they are sharing why they've made the choice themselves. That's all this post is about - just sharing.

For more pretty and modest skirts, try the above link for the outfits in the photo, as well as these:
Hannah Lise
Simply Modest
Butter and Honey
H2O Pink Label
Ringger Clothing - Sew Modest
The Frum Attic
and this online source list of Modest Clothing
as well as A Christian Home's Modest & Feminine Apparel

Also check out this modesty in dress blog I've linked to: offbeatmodestdress


I like to provide links when I can - in this day and age, it's so sad to hear someone say they "just can't find" modest clothing. Oh, and while searching, I came across a "new" link for modest swim wear, I'll have to add to the modest swim wear article I wrote a while ago. Since it's summertime in Australia now, how appropriate that this sun conscious website is providing protective swim wear in Australia, which just happens to be modest too: sharksuit.com.

Old Fashioned and New in Istanbul

If you are interested in the various old fashioned qualities of various cultures, you must read this article. It is an enchanting visit of the author and family with some new friends in the country of Turkey. At home with the Usak Family, BY ROBERT WALTON, 11/7/07

Journaling Modesty in Dress

I think I only missed this website/journal in the past because it is "livejournal.com" and not a "blogger.com". However it happened, I am happily surprised to find the lively cross-cultural and helpful discussions concerning modest style, including head covering at this journal. If you can spare a moment, you might want to check it out.

http://community.livejournal.com/modest_style/

A Book about Christian Modesty

Normally when I post links, they are for information, and not to endorse or sell. However, I know this lovely author's wonderful Marmee, and am looking forward to her book doing some good work for the glory of God. Modesty: it's not so old-fashioned anymore. Is it?

The Modest Heart is now available for purchase through Xulon Press! Be sure to keep an eye on TheModestHeart.com for details.

Click here to buy.



Blurb from the website:

Discover how to cultivate the incorruptible beauty that is very precious in the sight of God with the practical guidelines and advice in The Modest Heart.

Be empowered to fight the waves of cultural immodesty that have invaded the lives of Christians today. You'll find new ways to effectively champion modesty in yourself and those around you.

Becoming a woman of godly grace is a journey that was never promised to be easy, but it can be one of the most joyful and fulfilling experiences of your life.

Discover how the true beauty of your heart is reflected in the decency of your body.

Lady Walking Alone

I came across this paragraph, reading a blog online, which is quoted from a book on dating and so on. She didn't say which book, though I believe it is from "Lady in Waiting: Developing Your Love Relationships" by Debby Jones and Jackie Kendall. I just really appreciate the thoughts.

"One lady wrote to me, frustrated that people often view a single woman as just marking time until the right man comes a long. Poor single woman! The world wants her to fornicate, and the church wants her to marry! Whatever happened to what Paul said about the blessings of being single?" William Booth wrote, "Don't instill, or allow anybody else to instill into the hearts of your children the idea that marriage is the chief end of life. If you do, don't be surprised if they get engaged to the first empty, useless fool they come across. Women and men should marry when it is plainly the will of God for their lives, NOT because they 'can't minister' otherwise, or because of social pressure."

--------
Paul says, about the blessings of being single:

"I want you to be free from anxieties. The unmarried man is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord. But the married man is anxious about worldly things, how to please his wife, and his interests are divided. And the unmarried or betrothed woman is anxious about the things of the Lord, how to be holy in body and spirit. But the married woman is anxious about worldly things, how to please her husband. I say this for your own benefit, not to lay any restraint upon you, but to promote good order and to secure your undivided devotion to the Lord." 1 Corinthians 7:32-35
--------

This is not to negate the beauty and holiness of a marriage in Christ, of course!

"A woman's heart should be so hidden in Christ
that a man should have to seek Him first to find her."

(And vice-versa) What do you think?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sometimes, while planning to get married someday, a Lady might decide to work for the Lord in the meantime. Sometimes, while working for the Lord, a Lady might find that she can serve Him in marriage too, and what an added blessing that is.

Here's a list of books to read on living single in purity, and courtship, as opposed to spending your single years in mostly a pursuit of seeking your self and/or a mate, from a friend of mine, who is serving the Lord while living at home and serving her parents. She has organized them:


"These are all about making sure your relationship with God is right before you EVER even think about a relationship with a man...Very good books. "

• Lady In Waiting-Debby Jones and Jackie Kendall
• Authentic Beauty- Leslie Ludy
• When God Writes Your Love Story- Eric and Leslie Ludy***Also a guys book***
• Before You Meet Prince Charming-Sarah Mally
• When Dreams Come True-Eric and Leslie Ludy***Also a guys Book***

"For those of you who don't know that I do courtship aka. not kissing before marriage...Plus some other things. I am just telling you in advance..If you don't like it then you probably should not read any of these books about keeping your heart pure or striving to please God in the process....j/k..You should read it anyway :)"

• So Much More-Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin
• Dating vs. Courtship-Paul Jehle***Also a guys book***
• Dating is it Worth the Risk- Reb Bradley***Also a guys Book***
• Her Hand in Marriage-Douglas Wilson
• The Princess and the Kiss-This is a story book for young girls.I still LOVE reading this book.So sweet :)
• The Squire and the Scroll-This is the young boys version of ^^ that book.
• I Kissed Dating Goodbye-Joshua Harris**Also a guys book**
• Boy Meets Girl-Joshua Harris**also a guys book**
• Emotional Purity-Heather Paulsen

"Books on Raising Girls to be Godly Women-Yes I have done every one of these study books at least twice...But don't let how badly I've turned out discourage you from trying to make your girls into Godly women :)"

• How to be a Lady-Harvey Newcomb-This book is a little dry because it was written in the 1800's. But it has some good points to it!
• Beautiful Girlhood-Karen Andreola
• In My Fathers House-Same as How to be a lady....
• Training Our Daughters to be Keepers at Home- I cannot say enough about this book! It is a 7 year course..Yes, seven years! And it starts with, I think, 6th grade and goes through 12th. You start off with teaching the girls how to do things like cook easy recipes then it gets harder. It even goes into training your daughters when they get married and become moms...
• Polished Cornerstones-Doorposts..This one is not quite as long as the one above, but it does have a day to day type outline...
• Raising Maidens of Virtue-Stacy McDonald
• Making Brothers and Sisters Best Friends-The Mally Siblings

"Also if you are planning on doing courtship with your children and don't really like them reading love novels, the Castleberry's have come out with a series of stories for young people about various people that have done courtship-"

• Waiting for her Isaac
• The Courtship of Sarah McLean
• The Courtship of Jeff McLean
• Journey of the Heart: The Story of Janet McLean

"You can buy just about all of these books from Grace and Truth Bookstore.. (for those of you that homeschool-wait until they come to the curriculum fair.They are always cheaper there :)"

"Vision Forum also has some AWESOME stuff about all the things that I mentioned.Plus they are having one HUGE sale right now!"

• Vision Forum They have awesome cd's about courtship, raising Godly men and women, manliness etc...
• Grace and Truth Bookstore
• Authentic Beauty

"Also if you have boys you can find books with the same material except for boys..."

~~~~~~~~
Watch the trailer for Visionary Daughters' "Return of the Daughters"

Isn't my friend organized? All I had to do was google search each title, and link it to one of the websites where that book is available for purchase. I decided to use multiple sites that sell these books, because I was happily surprised at the number of websites out there that are promoting these kinds of thoughtful books. If you have time, check further into a few of them, for more things to read and think about.

Here's a couple of lessons to listen to on the same topic:

• The lesson on single Ladyship called Courtship and Marriage, by Ruth Myers
• A couple of sermons titled So You Want to Get Married, by Paul E. Sheppard

And some great blogs and websites to read:

Anna's Musings
Mayden Fair
Single Girl in God's Army
Visionary Daughters
Articles from With All Thy Heart E-zine
Articles Especially for the Unmarried, by Ladies Against Feminism